Early Keilwerths
I have recently become a big fan of early Keilwerths, around the serial 10xxx to 21xxx.
Make – Dolnet; Model – Belair; Serial Number – 33115C; Date of Manufacture – 1947; Place of Manufacture – Mantes, Paris, France; Finish – Gold lacquer; Weight – 5lb 3oz; Sound – Rich and deep; Ease of Blowing – Wide and full; Ease of Fingering – Well balanced; More about Dolnet saxophones can be found currently on the Web. Feb 12, 2014 Hello! I'm happy i found your forum. You see my stepdad is having some problems remembering what model his Dolnet sax is. We think it is a Bel Air but not 100% sure. So if anyone have a clue about it. We'll appreciate it alot:) However, the serial number is 46327C. And if anyone might know. I have since gotten the Dolnet, New Aristo, and 26M mentioned above in and played the Dolnet and the 26M vs. The Modell 3- the New Aristo needs an overhaul first. Although the Dolnet and 26M weren’t in what I would consider perfect playing condition, the Modell 3 still won in terms of sound in my book- although the other horns look quite a.
There is a picture of the New King and the Modell 3 I speak about in this article in the gallery.
To get up to speed on Keilwerth New King/Tone King and their stencils, go to http://www.saxpics.com/keilwerth/newking.htm and give it a good read.
Ok, so now that you’ve read that, I have seen some horns that don’t totally add up with the serial chart Pete has up, although it is a very good general guide. I think the best way you can figure out which horn you have is going to be first by general serial number range, and then (and almost as importantly) what is on the horn itself. I think that the serial ranges may even overlap sometimes, as I have a Tone King with sheet metal keyguards that looks very much like a New King Series I, although it is firmly in the serial range that should be the plastic keyguard model.
One of the things that Saxpics does not have updated yet is more info about the “King Modell 3”, which I myself own, a 13xxx example in silver plate.
I did a bit of measuring and playing on a New King 15xxx alto lacquer and a King Modell 3 13xxx silver plate these past few days. I believe they are identical in body tube and neck, with the only differences being in keywork. The Modell 3’s keywork is not as nice, and seems to be a “budget” model, if not just an earlier model. The differences are:
1. One less roller on the LH pinky table of the Modell 3. One roller between Bb and B (located on the Bb), instead of two (on both Bb and B) like on the New King, making the roll a bit less slick.
2. Regular side keys on the Modell 3, vs. the way cool ones on the New King.
3. No rollers on the low B and Bb activating levers (where the actual keycups are activated by the arms attached to the keys on the pinky table) on the Modell 3, while they are present on the New King. A little teflon makes this unnoticeable, however.
4. No front F on the Modell 3, while the New King has one.
5. No cool textured plastic G# key on the Modell 3.
I think thats it, although I am working from memory right now. The necks were interchangeable. The keywork is a mixture of Selmer, Conn, and what-have-you, and is surprisingly comfortable and modern-feeling, with the exception of the pinky table which is Conn 6M all the way (although I personally believe the M series pinky tables to be far superior to the modern Selmer style). The sound is… well, unbelievable. Full, powerful, sweet, ballsy, pure… the sax just seems to float in midair and never gets in the way.
The main issue when working on these has been that the rolled tone holes are WAY unlevel, and my horn at least was never refinished (not so sure on the New King, the lacquer is obviously very old, but is over the engraving, although the engraving looks very deep and even), so it must have come that way from the factory. These tonehole issues seem to be the case with modern Keilwerths as well, and I’ve also seen it on 50s, 60s, and 70s Keilwerths. Steven Howard reviews a modern SX90R and finds the same thing here: http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Tenor/Keilwerth_sx90r_tenor.htm
My Modell 3 is my main alto now (dethroned a 28M by a frickin’ mile and a half) and the New King I mentioned has replaced the long time main axe (a customized yamaha yas-62 purple label) of this guy: www.loganrichardson.com.
*UPDATE*
I have since gotten the Dolnet, New Aristo, and 26M mentioned above in and played the Dolnet and the 26M vs. the Modell 3- the New Aristo needs an overhaul first. Although the Dolnet and 26M weren’t in what I would consider perfect playing condition, the Modell 3 still won in terms of sound in my book- although the other horns look quite a bit nicer than my Modell 3, and the 26M certainly feels nicer too.
One of my quirks/hobbies is always playing every horn I overhaul vs. my main horn of that size and keeping the winner. For a while this meant changing horns every few months as my tastes changed, or if one looked nicer but played the same. So far nothing has come close to this Modell 3 though, and I have a feeling if I ever start using another alto as my main alto anytime soon, it will probably be a New King from the same vintage. Of course a LOT of this is my personal preference in sound, but in any case I encourage anyone who has a the opportunity to give one of these 10xxx to 20xxx (or therabouts- I recently got a 21xxx Tone King that looks to be pretty much the same, I’ll know more once it comes in) Keilwerths a try.
For what its worth, if you do find one of these, I and others that have played on these find that stubby large chamber pieces seems to work best for intonation. Think Master Link, Slant Sig, and my Morgan 3C does fine too. Longer, small chambered pieces (like a s80 C*) tended to have the palm keys way flat and the bell keys way sharp- a sure sign of having too long a mouthpiece and too small a chamber, respectively.
*UPDATE 2*
I recently scored a Modell 3 tenor on ebay, and it is exactly like the alto in every respect (including playing incredibly) except it has a front F! I got my “King Modell 3” tenor in the mail a few days ago, and it is very like my alto in every detail, with the exception that it has a front F! Score!
The front F is interesting because the tenor is an earlier serial than my alto Modell 3- which means that it must have either been an option on these horns (which means there may be King Modell 3 altos with front Fs somewhere), or perhaps the tenor King Modell 3s all had front Fs while the altos did not.
*UPDATE 3*
I have since gotten two other horns with different engravings that are also New King Series I stencils. One says “Uebel” and is exactly like the Modell 3 alto except with a front F and different engraving, and one says “ToneKing Solo” and it has a front F, forked Eb, G# trill, and high E trill, and all the keytouches are pearls, much like the Conn Virtuoso Deluxe model, except this one is in silver plate with engraving only on the bell. Measurements match up to the Modell 3/New King, and they play much the same.
I would have to conclude that pretty much every Keilwerth made between APPROXIMATELY 10xxx and 20xxx is going to be this same body tube design, with many many variants as far as keywork and engraving.
The bottom line remains the same: go try one out! They are amazing horns- I won’t go so far as to say the best, at least not in public, but playing is believing.
*UPDATE 4*
I have now had two of the Amati/Keilwerth horns in my possession, and after doing some research and taking a lot of measurements, I think I have some new info to offer on the pedigree of the horns with both the JKG stamp and the “Made in Czechoslovakia” stamp by the serial number.
I have an Amati toneking alto in lacquer, exactly like the one on saxpics.com under the “Amati ToneKing” heading. He lists Amati Tonekings as either having a Keilwerth serial or maybe not having one. My toneking alto does NOT have a Keilwerth serial number, although it has the JKG stamp and everything else. Measurements between that horn and any of my New King I stencils prove them to be different in several places, including the easiest to identify: the necks are not interchangeable. I also have a tenor with both the JKG and Made In Czechoslovakia stamp. This tenor, however, has a Keilwerth serial and all of the measurements are identical to my Modell 3 tenor, and the necks ARE interchangeable.
I believe that there are two distinct types of “Amati” ToneKings. One is with a Keilwerth serial, and these were MADE in the Keilwerth factory and thus stamped with a Keilwerth serial, but they were assembled by Amati due to complications from the war- most likely the parts that had already been made were just shipped out. Much like “American” Mark VI’s are still VIs, these are for all intents and purposes Keilwerths. These are also the more rare type. Another type does NOT have a Keilwerth serial number. These were MADE in the Amati factory with Keilwerth tooling, and although very similar, they are slightly different horns, much like the difference between a transitional 6M and a 6M. These are Amati horns, and from what I have seen so far, these are more common.
I have NOT overhauled my Amati-made ToneKing alto to see what differences there will be between it and my Keilwerth-made Series I horns- hopefully the difference will be minor, but with different dimensions it could be as different as a whole new model.
*Update 5*
I finally got around the the Amati ToneKing alto, and I repadded it in similar fashion to my NK I alto- tan Precision pads, flat metal resonators.
After having my hands on it for a lot of hours and playtesting it for a while, intonation guided my key heights to just about the same exact heights as my NK I. Intonation was decent, not awesome, but easily adjustable. The worst note for me was low D, which is about 15 cents sharp. Easily lip-able, and any adjustment to low D would do the same thing to middle D, so I left it as-is because its easier to lip low D down than it is to lip middle D up, and middle D is playing in tune. I used the same mouthpiece I usually use on my NK I- a Morgan 3C.
Build quality seems to be about the same, perhaps slightly cheapened vs. the New King. The rolled toneholes are still unlevel. The lacquer is high quality (still looks pretty good on mine anyways) and the original case is really nice. The Amati does have a front F, and also has a high E trill key. It has normal side keys, unlike the New King beveled and tilted side keys. The pearls, instead of being concave, are flat. It took a few minutes to get used to the feel of the flat pearls, but after that it wasn’t really something I noticed.
Playing-wise, I would call this horn a close cousin to the New King. It has the same power, but with more projection and a more laser-like sound. It would make a GREAT bop horn, but I think it might be too penetrating for ballads. Crazy analogy time: if the tone of the NK I is chocolate, this horn is cinnamon.
All in all, a very nice horn that can be had at bargain basement prices if you see them around. Definitely take it to a tech that has experience with unusual horns, because this is NOT a Mark VI or even close, and it will require special attention to have it play its best. If you are low on cash and looking for a horn with a unique voice and plenty of balls for your bop gig and you come across an Amati ToneKing, definitely give it a try.
*Update 6*
So its been a few years, and my main alto is still the Keilwerth King Modell 3. I’ve worked on quite a few of these horns in the meantime, and my initial assessment remains valid. Also turned quite a few other folks on to these horns, and by and large people are extremely impressed by the tone coming out of these horns.
I think if I can, I will someday add a Buffet Super Dynaction to my alto stable, but my main axe remains the 1930s Keilwerth alto.
*Update 7*
Finally, at long last, I switched altos. I now play on a Selmer Balanced Action. I miss some of the character of the tone in the New King Series I, but I enjoy being able to use pretty much whatever mouthpiece I want and have it still play in tune.
(1935 to 1984; s/n 0 thru 01xxx; earlier models not listed)
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Dolnet (pronounced DOL-NAY) is a model which has been getting steadily more popular since I started this website. There is a good reason for this: the horns are solidly made, are quite jazzy and have a fairly good sound, although there are some negative comments here and there regarding intonation. There isn't a Dolnet model or serial number chart, per se, so I essentially am creating this based on engravings, user input and manufacturing differences. As far as real Dolnet history goes, Dolnet was founded in 1880 and started manufacturing saxophones around 1888. I'm going to let guest columnist Laurie Pimblett take it from here (his commentary will always be in RED. Quotations from other sources are in BROWN): Over the years I've been exclusively collecting French saxes. Along the way I've made a small collection of Dolnets; these I regard as unknown treasures of the sax world, and I rate them very highly indeed. They are often good -- sometimes breathtaking -- and rank amongst the best saxes I've ever played! ... and the quoted and requoted line that's going around the Internet (this is Wichita Band Instruments' version): IMHO, it appears that Dolnet production parallels Buffet, SML and Couesnon production, more than Selmer: not only is the keywork design on early Dolnets similar to early SML's (and becomes similar to Buffet after about 1940), some of the Jean Cartier stencils have the beautiful Sparkle Lacquer that is most famously found on the Buffet Super Dynaction. The overall look is definitely influenced by (or influenced) Couesnon horns. All this makes me agree with David Hughes (an e-mailer): the Dolnets were produced until at least the mid-1980's, not the 1960's as many websites indicate (see also Saxophon-Service, which advocates an end date of 1984). As mentioned, there isn't an official serial number list, although there are some ranges cobbled together, below. It seems, however, that the serial number ranges incorporate the full production of ALL instruments produced by Dolnet, not just saxophones. I'd think that production of saxophones was no more than 500 horns per year. Also note that the 'Bel Air' series introduced letters after the serial number. If you see a 'C' after the serial number, it isn't a C instrument! As always, if you have further information or pictures, please contact me at saxpics@gmail.com. |
Bb Sopranos | ||
s/n 42xx Silver Plate From eBay.com | ||
If it is true that the first Dolnet saxophones were produced in 1888, these are definitely not the first saxophones that Dolnet produced, but are the earliest I've been able to find. It is possible that, like Buffet, their serial number chart has changed a couple of times. Based on these horns' keywork, I would estimate they were made in the mid- to late-1930s. | ||
Series II (s/n 12xx to 34xxx; 1940 to 1950) | ||||
Bb Tenors | ||||
s/n unknown Silver Plate From eBay.com | ||||
More from Mr. Pimblett: [The pictures from Sax'Melody are from] I think, a French guy who just wanted the world to see the progress he was making in his restoration of an earlier Dolnet tenor; it's a gorgeous sax and I would love to get my hands on it. It has a simple bellbrace, and instead of pearls on the keyguards it looks to have red glass or garnet -- perhaps even red amber -- which was certainly popular with the top-class British and American fishing reel manufacturers as a hardwearing and semi-precious bearing material and decoration back in the '20s -'40s. There also appears to be an 'intermediate' horn in this series without these 'gems', or it could just be that Dolnet wanted to change things for a year or two. The later horns in this series switch to the 'diamond' bell to body brace which is found on virtually all later Dolnets. | ||||
Bel Air Series (s/n 34xxx to 80xxx; 1950 to 1970) | ||||
Bb Tenors | ||||
s/n 395xxG Thanks to Laurie Pimblett Lacquer Two-Tone Enamel Silver | ||||
My Dolnet tenor is, I think, a Belair model, but in silver. It's a big bore sax with the typical hexagonal 'Art Deco' touches to the side keys, the crook ferrule and the C/Eb cluster. The LH thumb-rest is a round pearl, as are the centres on the geometric keyguards. The crook-cork collar is rolled, like Selmer's. Keywork is (apart from the superb Dolnet octave system) otherwise conventional. Engraving is quite distinctive: elaborate concentric geometic scrolling, all emanating from what might be called a central 'cartouche' -- I think the artist was strongly influenced by the patterns in the magnetic field! The overall effect is stunning. [The 'Bel Air' model name is based on] a conversation I had with an old guy back a few years ago: he had a Bel Air tenor identical to mine, though of a slightly earlier ser. no. (within a few hundred). He bought it new in Paris back in the late 40's (though he couldn't be certain exactly when). My alto, which came from the same source, matches my tenor closely but again is not marked 'Bel Air'. My 395** tenor is probably younger by a year or two. These horns are virtually identical to the Imperial model (listed below). It's possible that Dolnet actually labelled these horns 'Bel Air' for a few years, labelled them 'Imperial' for a few years and then decided not to label them anything at all. | ||||
Imperial Models (s/n 40xxx to 45xxx; 1952 to 1953) | ||
Bb Tenors | ||
s/n unknown From eBay.com Gold | ||
Please see the comments on the Bel Air series horns, above. It's possible that these horns were only available for this thin serial number range. | ||
Bb Tenors |
s/n 834xx Thanks to Laurie Pimblett Silver Plate |
Next comes something rather special, my M70 (model name engraved on the bell). This I got from a European dealer who listed it as 'a beginner's horn ... very difficult to play'. I got it for very little. It hasn't got the big sound of its older brothers, but it is one of the sweetest and most clear-voiced classical tenors I've ever played. Just recently I performed a Haydn duet with harpsichord/electric keyboard, and the audience was ecstatic about the sound: it plays the most controlled pianissimos of any of my saxes and has a lightning-fast action. Again, it has pearl touches to the keyguards which are typically Dolnet art-deco, though the engraving is quite different: this time in very beautiful series of straight and zigzagged lines in true deco style. Ser. no. 834** places it very late, possibly 1969-70. I also know that my M70 's original and battered case is one which was in production in the late 60's -- I actually remember them being sold. (Purely speculatively: could M70 stand for 'Modele (19)70'? Some manufacturers start off a new decade with a new model [e.g. the Mark VII and Super 80]. If it is true that the case is from the late 60's and this horn was only produced in the early 1970's, this might explain the extreme rarity of the sax, the significant departures from earlier Dolnet keywork and the dramatic lefthand angle on the bell.) The horn also has a redesigned G#/C#/B/Bb cluster, more 'rounded' (i.e. not 'Art Deco') keys and 'Selmeresque' lower keyrods. If you accept my theory that Dolnet borrowed heavily from Buffet design, this horn looks an awful lot like a combination of a Buffet Super Dynaction or S1 and a Buescher 400 'Top Hat and Cane'. |
Universal Models (s/n 00000 to 01xxx?; 1980 to 1984) |
These are a slightly less elaborate version of the M70: it doesn't have an offset bell and has different engraving, but otherwise appears identical to the previous model. I have heard of altos and sopranos in this serial number range. As far as I have been able to determine, this is the last model Dolnet. If the M70 was introduced in1970, I see no reason not to believe that these horns were introduced in 1980. |
Jean Cartier Stencils ('Bel Air' Stencil) | ||||
Bb Tenors | ||||
s/n 78621c From eBay.com Two-Tone | ||||
These are one of the few stencils I've ever seen that actually have MORE features than the horn they were stencilled from There are at least two models of these horns: 'The Royal Jazz Model', which sometimes has additional keywork (altissimo D# trill, G# trill, etc.), rolled tone holes and a microtuner neck, a la Conn and one sometimes labeled 'Artist Model' that generally doesn't have all the additional stuff, but is striking, nonetheless. As mentioned in the introduction, these models sometimes have been done in Sparkle Lacquer, like some Buffet Superdynactions. I've now seen two of these models, so I doubt that these horns were relacquers. | ||||
Jules Revan Stencil ('Imperial' Stencil) | ||
Eb Altos | ||
s/n 41509 Thanks to Junkdude Lacquer | ||
Please see the comments on the Bel Air and Imperial series horns, above. | ||
Bundy Saxophone Serial Numbers
Dolnet Resources at SOTW (archive board is in red)
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Dolnet Saxophone Serial Numbers Lookup
| Donate to the Vintage Saxophone Gallery Website | ||
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Yamaha Saxophone Serial Numbers
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